Something to think about

[milleplod]

I've been reading about oil. Apparently, its lubrication qualities never deteriorate - its the additives in it that go downhill. The base oil is infinitely reusable, and, once re-refined, its impossible to differentiate it from virgin oil.

If it meets BMW's spec for the bike, its fine.

Pete

[fontana]

This thread is hilarious.

Instead of asking why a cheap oil is cheap, ask why an expensive oil is expensive. How much of it is for marketing?

I wrote to Opie oils yesterday, and got a very interesting reply.
Worth a read.





There are reasons why budget oils are not the best option.


For example, there are three different types of synthetic basestocks, so there can be a big difference between the basic make up of oils, even though the labels essentially say the same thing.

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech-art ... ptions.pdf

As you can see from that, oils labelled as synthetic can be mineral oil derived, proper genuine synthetics or ester based synthetics, all of which affect the price. Shell have thrown a spanner in the works with that classification as they now use a different method to produce the group 3 oils, which uses gas as the raw material and reduces the level of impurities in the finished product, so in theory the Shell group 3 basestock is pretty good stuff.

Another way of affecting the price of an oil is to alter the additive package.

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech-art ... ackage.pdf

The additive pack is a very important part of the oil and can greatly affect the oils properties, but it can be reduced in quality or quantity to reduce the production costs. That can mean that the oil will not last as long or work as well.

Quality control affects the price and quality, the more samples are tested during production, the more it costs, but the more likely it is to be what it says on the label. Some cheap oils have been found to be well out of grade (one of the worst I've heard of was something that was supposed to be a 5w-40 was actually a 20w-40).

Paying for the name is one way of looking at it, the other way is reassurance due to a trusted brand. Yes, Castrol, Shell and Mobil can be expensive, but everyone knows those brands and very few people have ever had problems with them. Some of the smaller brands are less well known and people don't know how good their products will be. That's not to say they won't be fine, but paying an extra few quid for peace of mind can be worth it.

Actual manufacturer approvals can cost a lot of money and that adds to the price of an oil, so a lot of manufacturers sell oils as 'meets the requirements of XXXX' or 'Can be used where XXXX is specified'. You then have to trust the oil manufacturer that the oil is actually suitable for the application, rather than the oil being approved. Don't risk that with cars under warranty, pretty much all manufacturers will void a warranty if the wrong oil is used. Some dealerships are testing the oil before they look at engine issues now, as if the oil is incorrect, they may be able to get out of doing the work.

[Gromit]

Thanks for that - some years ago (nearly 20!) there was a chap in our local branch of the Lotus 7 Club who worked for BP Mobil as a petrochemicals engineer. Basically, his job was to 'design' oils.

The reply you got from Opie pretty much backs up everything he used to say. Often felt sorry for the guy as he was usually bombarded with questions from the 'what oil should I use' fraternity (me included, I'll admit!).

[The Teutonic Tangerine]

Over the last 40 years I have used all sorts of oils in cars and bikes (for many years all my cars ran on Oil supplied to the firm where a relative worked which was for lorry engines), - and I have never had an issue where the oil wore an engine out. I always took the view, as still do, that some oil was better than no oil. Lately I have used the oil from B&Q badged up as Carlube, in the bike and it don't smoke rattle or clunk. In my car which is still relatively low mileage I use Halfords Oil for Citroens rather than the recommended TOTAL oil.

[fontana]

I've asked Opie to recommend an oil based on the type of rider I am, and of course the bike.
They really are very helpful.
Here's their reply.

Hi
A 10w-50 is ideal for your bike (as you are using it in the winter, it will give better cold start protection than the standard 15w-50) and the best option is the Silkolene Pro 4, followed by the Castrol Racing and the Motul 7100, then the Motul 5100.

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-881-10w-50-engine-oils.aspx

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people that think the best oil is the cheapest oil, so when you ask for oil advice, their information is based on price rather than quality. As you want the bike to last and cover a fair few miles a year, you want a decent oil. With BMW owners, I often hear that the only thing you can use is a mineral 20w-50 and that is wrong, it's the basic option (it's too basic for a lot of BMWs) and is the sort of thing I would tend to recommend for a classic.




Regards

[fontana]

I've asked BMW to recommend an oil based on the type of rider I am, and of course the bike.

They said to use an oil that meets the specification for my bike, as listed in its handbook.

If it meets BMW's spec for the bike, its fine.

Pete

Who are you quoting

I notice you are reluctant to pass comment on the advice I got from opie in regard to bargain basement oil's.
Perhaps you could give me your erm,expert advice
I look forward to that

[Herb]

I've asked BMW to recommend an oil based on the type of rider I am, and of course the bike.

They said to use an oil that meets the specification for my bike, as listed in its handbook.

If it meets BMW's spec for the bike, its fine.

Pete

Who are you quoting

I notice you are reluctant to pass comment on the advice I got from opie in regard to bargain basement oil's.
Perhaps you could give me your erm,expert advice
I look forward to that

If you want expert advice Fontana you can ask me!

[fontana]

If you want expert advice Fontana you can ask me!

OK then
Perhaps you could go through the email I got from Opie oils, and tell me why he's wrong about cheap oils.
I look forward to that.

[Herb]

If you want expert advice Fontana you can ask me!

OK then
Perhaps you could go through the email I got from Opie oils, and tell me why he's wrong about cheap oils.
I look forward to that.

I don't need to. Everything in the email from Opie appears to be correct and common sense.

The problem is not with Opie, but with your statements Fontana / Bikes n Bones. As usual you are changing the terms of the discussion until we end up discussing something almost entirely different, and then you twist peoples earlier words and statements.

The original discussion started with fake oil. Fine. I wont buy oil from that bloke in the layby on the A5! Thank you for saving me from myself.

The statement that then seems to have attracted your ire, was concerning buying cheap oils from reputable sources, for example Unipart.

Nothing in the statements from Opie contradict any of the earlier comments, although quite usefully, he suggests several reasons why people might be more comfortable buying branded oils over cheaper oils.

At no point does he say 'do not by cheap oil of the correct specification from a reputable source'. At no point does he validate the statements from your relative in Asda concerning their own brand of oil. At no point does he back up your statements on restaurants, Lidle crash helmets, brewerys or any of the other random analogies you have use to back up your ravings.

I will reiterate again my earlier statement (and this is my expert opinion as a degree qualified Mechanical Engineer, with 22 years working in automotive design and testing for the worlds biggest automotive companies), IF YOUR OIL MEETS THE SPECIFICATION DEFINED BY THE MANUFACTURER FOR YOUR SPECIFIC CLIMATE, DUTY CYCLE ETC, THEN IT IS OK TO USE.

Can't you find another forum to troll?

[Gromit]

This thread is now locked - as has been the case in the past, we have certain individuals who seem to wish to cause arguments for arguments' sake.

Any further similar activity will result in that person being banned.