PC? Chip?

throttlemeister · Post by **throttlemeister** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:31 pm

Having used the search and doing lots of reading, I may be opening a can of worms but I still want to ask.

What is better? The powercommander w/ wideband O2, or getting a chip for the mototronic?

I understand a lot of these chips are tuned for max throttle, which I couldn't care less about. I also hear stories about burned pistons icw chip.

The PC is more flexible, though potentially less optimal compared to a good chip. It can be tuned relatively easily to deliver power where you want - in my case I prefer midrange power to accelerate out of corners.

What should I go for? PC or chip? If chip, which chips do what I want? I have seen so many different and rebranded chips of the same I have no idea anymore.

Help? Views? Opinion?

Gromit · Post by **Gromit** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:35 pm

PC - simply because it is more flexible and can be programmed to match your bike's spec exactly

I'd have it over a chip every time - plus the PC can be altered to grow with your bike's modifications.

Welcome to the group by the way.

throttlemeister · Post by **throttlemeister** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:39 pm

Thanks Gromit, I introduced myself in another thread too.

BTW gromit, did you happen to ride a VFR in the past, and spend time on the VFR forums? Your nick seems to be familiar.

Me-109 · Post by **Me-109** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:50 pm

Doesn't the chip alter ignition timing and fuelling, whereas the PC only alters fuelling? I think the answer may lie in the mods you have planned.

throttlemeister · Post by **throttlemeister** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:52 pm

Laser or Staintune, it already has a K&N. Possibly an induct mod (if I can find some pics of where and how to drill; that CF duct is too expensive and only really works at highspeed)

winger · Post by **winger** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:50 pm

Haveing had a S for some years and seen god knows how many postings about chips,in the early days of the BBP chips just sorting out which was best went into dozens of postings,never mind all the other varities,bottom line being,if you do it properly fit a chip put the bike on a dyno and it's not right,what are you going to do?? you can't tune e'm,the BBP have several options but doesn't have the ability to give a custom tune for your individual set up.

Malcs story put me of the BBP chip,Richard can tell his story as well as i can,hence why i waited six years for a PC,but to give a balanced view,if look on the Pelican some ain't happy for several reasons,non of which i have come across,mine runs very well.

sproggy · Post by **sproggy** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:59 pm

Me-109 wrote:Doesn't the chip alter ignition timing and fuelling, whereas the PC only alters fuelling? I think the answer may lie in the mods you have planned.

No, the timing/advance isn't part of the mapping on the chip - it's fixed in the ECU itself. That's one of the reasons why Motronic is so hard to do anything useful with, because you can't change the advance curve, only the fuelling.

BTW what's a wide band O2 sensor - is it a non-OE replacement that comes with the PC? Or one from a different model?

throttlemeister · Post by **throttlemeister** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:40 pm

It's a replacement that comes with the PC. It is able to read any value, allowing you to set the PC to a user defined A/F ratio, whereas the OE sensor can only read 1.

r550s · Post by **r550s** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:01 pm

the BBpower chip alters the ignition timing, and has different levels of advance for the selectable stages. Mine has been fitted for 4 years (1998 bike) without a problem. With a straight through y piece & can it has given 99 rwbhp. The PCIII doesn't alter ignition, but does offer flexibility for whatever mods you might make, so long as you are prepared to set it up on a dyno. From my experience neither gives 'bolt-on' power. Nor, (if you check the wording on the box) do the makers actually claim this.
If you're keen on mid-range, consider the Boxer Performance 9' advance cam sprockets (from Lennie, much cheaper than chips too). I used these on mine to fill in a mid-range hole from 5000-5700 rpm and they added 6rwbhp at 5500 and feel completely brill. No measured loss at the top end, or anywhere, but seat-of-the-pants says it feels flatter at the very top after 7000rpm. That's probably down to the changed shape of the power curve though. I have before and after dyno charts
for the sprocket fitment, but I don't know how to post them. Just a note of caution: my cam timing was 5' late before I fitted the sprockets, so net advance was only 4' over stock. However, I think late cam timing might be a common-ish factory fault with the S because quite a few show doldrums before 5700rpm. This last bit is only my theory though. In short, I think the advance sprockets might be good, especially if you're actually suffering the pre-5700 doldrums.

sproggy · Post by **sproggy** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:15 pm

r550s wrote:the BBpower chip alters the ignition timing, and has different levels of advance for the selectable stages.

Do you have any evidence to support this? I remain unconvinced that a chip (BB Power or otherwise) can alter timing on an 1100/1150. I ran one on an 1150GS and wouldn't hesitate to recommend one based upon my experience, however it's a fuelling remap only.

Why would an engine with K&N and no cat be able to run more advance than a standard engine? And why would adding a freeflowing end can to this allow a further advance? Compression ratio remains unchanged at each of these stages. The only difference is in how easily the engine can breathe, and therefore in the amount of fuel that can be burned efficiently.

If a chip could change the ignition advance why would BB Power be the only company taking advantage of this?

twodear · Post by **twodear** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:23 am

Have a look at this link.
http://www.techlusion.com/
Click on the Motorcycle tab and you should see several links regarding BMW. The sites has really good installation instructions and a support forum for tuning tips. I bought my 1030 unit on fleabay for $136.

The company is Dobeck and they are based in Montana, USA. While the location is not what I would call the centre of motorcycle tuning, it seems to work okay. I have installed the 1030 model into my track bike and it gave me another 3hp and a couple of ft/lbs torque. I've just had this done so have not had it on the track to see what the effect is.

Where other devices add or subract fuel and change mapping, this module merely adds fuel at certain parts of the rev range to the existing mapping. It is connected with three wires; the red to B+ and the other two to the injectors. On my 1999 model, the injector at each cylinder are connected in parallel and fire at the same time. This doesn't seem logical to me but that is the way it is. The wire code to the injectors on my bike are green/white (power) and yellow/grey (firing signal from the Motronic module).

The Techlusion is designed to be tuned using seat of the pants response but I had mine done on the local Dynotune dyno. Where I started at 96hp I now have 99hp. I can't remember the exact numbers for torque.

They have other models that are designed for use with the Lamba (O2) sensor.

r550s · Post by **r550s** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:29 am

(reply for Sproggy) Bernard Bludau (as in BB) has told me that the chip for the s alters ignition advance - discussing the need to select the standard program before you service the ignition timing. As for the other stuff, well there's lots of theory (and theorists!) about all of this, so here goes: Maybe factory igntition advance is more conservative than you can get away with, because it allows for all types of fuel, but I really dunno.
As for camshaft advance, well the theorists won't do this at all. Wish I could post the dyno charts!

sproggy · Post by **sproggy** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:15 am

Factory ignition advance on any vehicle without knock sensors is ALWAYS more conservative than it's possible to get away with because they don't know what fuel you're going to be running it on. In this country we're blessed with (mostly) good fuel and even using regular unleaded it's possible to run more advance than standard in most engines.

So the answer to the original question seems to be....both. Chip for the revised ignition advance (and raised rev limiter if that's what you want) and then a PC to get the fuelling spot on. Which'll cost somewhere in the region of £800 including dyno time.

Surely SOMEONE can come up with a way of altering mapping (fuel and ignition) on an EPROM that replaces the standard chip, allowing the bike to be set up directly and without a Power Commander or similar? Like the Sagem system on Triumphs - I used to regularly plug a laptop into my Sprint RS to tweak the maps.

Anyway, off to the MoT station now. Shouldn't be any problems, but fingers crossed......

winger · Post by **winger** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:15 am

The BBP chip came up the best solution at the time mainly because there wasn't any other,people even rigged a set up so they could change between at least two of the four options,i can't ever remember two people agreeing which was the best one!!!,i beleave it also raised the rev limit!! all a bit pointless on an old air cooled twin!!!

Malc who did a lot of miles on his ended up burning both pistons.

Not matter which chip you use, put it on a dyno?? you might get a HP reading so what,if it's running to rich or to weak in certain area's what are you going to do????,there's no way of changing it,hence why there's been such a hoo haa about Power Commander doing one for the S,i originally thought mine ran a stock map,only to told some time later!!! after several pints,not so,there's more fuel in at the bottom end!!!,but as anyone will tell you good tuners won't tell what day of the week it is never mind anything else,and thats why if you go the PC route find someone good who can do it.

throttlemeister · Post by **throttlemeister** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:48 am

What I understand is that there isn't a whole lot to do other than finetuning with the Powercommander because the BMW mototronic runs in closed loop between 10% and 80% throttle. Having a PC with wideband O2 sensor and adjusted for a proper A/F ratio of 13.8 takes care of most.

But I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.