BT014 Tyres / Bailey Copycat?

[Gromit]

I've a granny in the Coop who knows loads about tyres!!!!! she says you can call the release agent any old bollocks you like for legal purposes,but it's the crap that comes out of the tyre when new,(hence why any decent shop wipes e'm down with a fast evaporateing liquid

Chris

Sorry Chris, I'm just going off the info given by the guy who's head of technical at Bridgestone UK.

[winger]

Sorry to sound a non beleaver(I hear all the bullshit i can handle in raceing circles) pardon me if i'm wrong but he's the same geezer who officially tells you that 010 can't be used with a 020!!! it's all corporate tosh

I prefer my info from lower down the food chain!!

Chris

At the Valencian GP last year i got to meet one of the head honchos of Dunlop(raceing division),i was looking for the slot in the back of his head were they put the corporate tape!!!!

[Gromit]

he's the same geezer who officially tells you that 010 can't be used with a 020!!! it's all corporate tosh

He never said can't - just that B/Stone don't recommend it as the two aren't designed to work together.

Thing is Chris, this bloke's forgotten more about tyre technology than you or I will ever even know. Having met the bloke and bent his ear quite hard, he came across as a pretty decent, straight-talking guy. No 'Bridgestone this, Bridgestone that blah blah blah' at all. In fact he even mentioned 2 other tyre manufacturers who do things the same way as his firm. Hardly corporate bullsh*t.

I had an 010 front and 020 rear on my 11R when I bought it, felt fine. I then went to an 020 pair which hardly felt any different, and as you say yourself, tyres are a very subjective/psychological thing. After a while, I'd forgotten the 020 front was even there. Answer me this - what would Mr Phillips wish to gain by stating that the 010/020 pairing is incompatible?

[winger]

The reason is simple, we live in a world were the first priority is to avoid litigation!!!! every thing else is secondary.

If you know this bloke as a mate who'll talk to you off the record,then that carrys something in my book if you spoke to home as a punter,well thats up to you.

Chris

[Gromit]

Done approx 350 miles on the 014's now - they feel pretty damn good if the truth be told. They're definitely 'sportier' (if that makes sense) than the 010's and like Archie said, they're certainly of the 'drop into a corner' breed. I dare say they're too much tyre for everyday sort of use on the S, but I don't regret having them fitted.

Only downside - and I reckon this may be down to the suspension - the front is looking a bit chopped-up already on the shoulders of the tyre, as though it's being over-stressed. Could this be down to too much/too little damping? The front Ohlins feels quite bouncy, even on the highest damping setting (a couple of guys on Pelican have also noted this). Surely Ohlins would have got their sums right?

[bigblackfalco]

Done approx 350 miles on the 014's now - they feel pretty damn good if the truth be told. They're definitely 'sportier' (if that makes sense) than the 010's and like Archie said, they're certainly of the 'drop into a corner' breed. I dare say they're too much tyre for everyday sort of use on the S, but I don't regret having them fitted.

Only downside - and I reckon this may be down to the suspension - the front is looking a bit chopped-up already on the shoulders of the tyre, as though it's being over-stressed. Could this be down to too much/too little damping? The front Ohlins feels quite bouncy, even on the highest damping setting (a couple of guys on Pelican have also noted this). Surely Ohlins would have got their sums right?

Sounds good Richard.How do you think they'll fair for wear?? I'm thinking about something nice for the Tuono in a about a 1000 miles.
I can't see Ohlins getting their sums wrong....what have you tried adjusting??
Bailey.

[Gromit]

Sounds good Richard.How do you think they'll fair for wear?? I'm thinking about something nice for the Tuono in a about a 1000 miles.
I can't see Ohlins getting their sums wrong....what have you tried adjusting??
Bailey.

Wear-wise? Hard to tell, but the rear's had some pretty serious pasty today (and that's not just the weight of the pasty-eating rider) and looks really smooth and non-stressed. I'll know more after this weekend - so that'll also no doubt mean a wet-weather opinion too.

As to adjusting the shocks - the bike just feels really bouncy, and over firm. I've set the sag both ends to within the Ohlins recommended (30mm rear with me sat on the bike - 35mm front) and dialled in the settings Steve Warren had done by MCTechnics (r/comp=5 rebound=9 front damping is on 6 from full hard). The bike handles fine and steers really quickly now the back end's been raised - in fact I'm beginning to get altitude sickness

Part of the problem, I think, comes from me doing a lot of miles recently on the Triumph which is just peachy in the handling dept. The S just feels a bit out of control and overly 'loose'. I'll keep plugging away at it though - it's actually proving to be a useful learning tool, getting to feel what certain adjustments do. I'm just a bit frustrated that the bike's feeling harsh and not giving me the confidence I know it should.

I've backed off the preload at the rear for more sag, but it's not made a big difference - I've often heard it said (by people who know far more than me) that doing so can actually make the bike feel firmer, as the spring then ends up pushing the shock apart with more force. Increasing preload will raise the ride height (with rider aboard) but actually make the suspension softer. Weird, but somehow makes sense

<slopes away....scratching head...>

[bigblackfalco]

Right.....well like I said when I had mine I used Rob Barks settings (rear only) and they worked faultlessly for my solo rider 12 stone set up.
I left the preload as it came out the box:
The rear was -6 (from full hard) on Comp
and -20 on rebound. Rear sag was 17mm.

Both me and Gus who now owns the shock found these settings just about spot on.I think I added another click of compression damping.
I think the trick is not to mess about with the preload at all.Just concentrate on the damping settings.
Obviously I only used the rear unit and had the standard BMW unit on the front.
If you've still got the original front shock...i'd stick it back on....get the back working really peachy with the standard front.Then when you're happy stick the front ohlins back on and match the settings up with the rear unit.
I felt that the OE front unit was pretty good....just slightly too much compression damping....that world have been my only reason for ever getting an Ohlins on the front too.
There is no reason why the S shouldn't handle shit hot.....mine did....used to astound me and other bikes the way it went round corners.
Don't give up on it.It'll never be the same as the Trumpet.....must be about 50kg in weight difference between the 2 bikes....but the S should inspire total confidence when you've got it set up properly.
Bailey.

[Gromit]

Cheers Bailey - I've re-set the shocks to Ohlins factory settings and the bike's much more compliant now. Still a mite bouncy but it feels like the springs are working again - odd, as when I first fitted the shocks (with the same settings) it felt weird. Must be the things bedding in over a few hundred miles.

I've got Tony Smiff's old front OE Sport shock which has only covered about 6k so I'll fit that after the w/e, see how the bike feels.

[winger]

Hi Richard

If you go back to the standard shock,you'll notice a change in how quick the bike steers,the Ohlins are made to the same length as the sports shocks,so make sure you don't get confused between the speed of steering and the action of the shock Ohlin V standard,both Bailey and now Gus run the same set up as do i,i've always found it works that well never bothered with front Ohlin just slows the steering down,and of course ideally you need either a GS arm or Verholen but you know that any how,just put that for others that might read the post.

Chris

[Gromit]

Chris - surprisingly, front Ohlins is currently 318mm which is 1mm shorter than a standard BM shock and quite a bit shorter than the Sport one (I've got Tony Smiff's old Sport front on the shelf in my garage to compare - it's 330mm).

I do run a GS arm, and the rear Ohlins' length adjuster is wound out 4 full turns; 1 turn per mm of shock length x 2.6 for the distance to the wheel hub gives just over 1cm higher ride height over the Sport shock + GS arm. I'm 6'3" and my legs are nearly straight when my feet are on the floor at a standstill - haven't had a bike that tall for a while

Edit: Just looked in the Ohlins bumf and realised the rear, at 313mm, is 1mm shorter than the OE BMW non-sport shock. Only the later Sport (with the 365mm arm) is shorter with 310mm. But of course the rear Ohlins is length adjustable, as said.

[winger]

My original sport shock was 318,measured the seat height and then took the shock off replaced it with the Ohlin and then jacked the back up to the same height with the Verholen,all that aside Gus came round tonight and his is seriously jacked up,it's the front back thing that makes all the difference.

Thats why i'm always confused when people say they've put aftermarket shocks on and reckon it's a vast improvment cuz unless you do something about the front/back relationship it'll steer just the same,it might be a softer ride but it'll still steer like a barn door.

Chris

[Gromit]

Chris - softer ride yes, but also it's so much more controlled as in the bike doesn't get thrown off line anywhere near as easily, allowing faster progress down roads which would normally have the bike all over the place.

If I get time before the weekend, I'm going to stick Tony's old Sport shock in the front, see what difference it makes to the geometry and therefore feel of the bike. If my maths is correct (and bearing in mind how the Telelever works compared to conventional forks) there may be a bit of a surprise in store. Remember, Telelever's a fulcrum, not fixed at 2 solid points, therefore as the shock extends the fork (rake) angle will steepen. That gives quicker steering. Raising the back end relative to the front will give quicker steering of course, because the rake has decreased - raising the front aswell, because of the fulcrum effect, will decrease rake even further

Just found the definitive list of shock lengths, not including BCR's unfortunately:

Manufactured up to Sept 2000...
Standard/Sports
Front 319mm/330mm
Rear 314mm/318mm
All used a 385mm Paralever arm.

Manufactured after Sept 2000...
Sport runs Front 330mm/Rear 310mm - 365mm Para arm.
Standard S ran as per pre-Sept 2000 inc 385mm arm

Ohlins:

Front/Rear 318mm/313mm

[Rob B]

I see this thread is a few weeks old, so what do you all think of the 014's for the S.

As I can't get my beloved 010's any more it's time for a change and I'll be heading straight off to Spain/France. I don't want to have the same experience I endured when I fitted the old style Azuros and shit myself on every wet corner.

TIA, Rob

[adamski49]

Rob

Not much help but I've just stuck some Z6's on and initial feel is very good. I still have 1/2 an inch of shiny, fanny band to scrub in. Providing the edges in the dry and the wet weather perfromance is not too far removed from the 010's I'll be a happy chap. The extra mileage will just be a bonus.

I'm off to France on Saturday so I'll give a report when I get back... probably too late for you though.

Adam