Rough running R12S

[victorlaszlo]

I don't think it has anything to do with the cables, the rubber pieces are in good condition and no visible cracks anywhere. Also there is good play in the cables, but I noted something else which seems strange and I've posted a video of it here:

https://youtu.be/FbCqrdXEito

Not sure if this is a problem or as it should be.

The revving issue is present occasionally also when starting up, ie you press the ignition button, no throttle, engine starts, revs up to say 2000 rpm, slows down jumps up revs at 1800 before which, sometimes after a blip on the throttle, it goes down to 1150ish...

[Justcruising]

I go back to my earlier suggestion of doing a recalibration of the Idle Actuators (IA) using a GS-911 or similar, see if mechanic did this simple operation or can. May also be an intermittent problem with an IA. Also, the staggered idle down from cold start, seems inherent. Your YouTube clip seems to demonstrate play at one of the Bowden cable adjusters at a throttle body (if I recognise this correctly) BUT I recall this play does not occur during normal operation ... would need to investigate further on mine! Will have a closer look at mine when back home tomorrow.

Btw, your issue is not unheard of. See similar discussions here http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-r1100s-r1200s-tech-forum/501682-12s-engine-dies.html and others if you search!

One last thought, are you using premium unleaded fuel (RON 98 where i am) and personally I would avoid any ethanol blends.

[victorlaszlo]

I think air leak can be excluded as if I turn the ignition off or blip the throttle it goes back to normal, an air leak would still be present. Also, yesterday I sprayed butan gas around throttle bodies and airbox with no pick up in revs, so hopefully not this.

Someone on pelican parts mentioned idle actuator stopper / motors which can get stuck. Because the motors run through a cycle when ignition is switched on this exercise normally fixes it until next time. To remove these for inspection, is it as simple as unscrewing the safety torx on top of the TBS and pull them out?

Cheers Victor

[Justcruising]

I’ve only ever run the IA calibration function with a GS-911 and have not had a need to remove, dismantle or service an IA, although I recall reading threads of this done ... will see if I can locate. This link might help with understanding the IA issue http://www.hexcode.co.za/techinfo/iac .

Btw, I could not replicate quite the extent of play at one of the Bowden cable adjusters at a throttle body you demonstrated in your YouTube clip (if I recognise this correctly) BUT I don’t think it would come into play without your interference. Can always recheck with your mechanic.

[ted]

Sometimes its the simple things that can lead us down many false paths - i once swapped my plugs for top of the range iridium ones. Less than a year later i started with troubles similar to what you describe, against all my instincts but not wanting to start replacing coils etc, i changed the plugs even though i thought it wouldn't be them - yes, the faults were gone - i would try with a full set of new plugs - you might be surprised. Even the threads are knackered you may as well sort it once and for all

[victorlaszlo]

Sometimes its the simple things that can lead us down many false paths - i once swapped my plugs for top of the range iridium ones. Less than a year later i started with troubles similar to what you describe, against all my instincts but not wanting to start replacing coils etc, i changed the plugs even though i thought it wouldn't be them - yes, the faults were gone - i would try with a full set of new plugs - you might be surprised. Even the threads are knackered you may as well sort it once and for all

Actually received them a couple of days ago, change scheduled for today

[victorlaszlo]

Sometimes its the simple things that can lead us down many false paths - i once swapped my plugs for top of the range iridium ones. Less than a year later i started with troubles similar to what you describe, against all my instincts but not wanting to start replacing coils etc, i changed the plugs even though i thought it wouldn't be them - yes, the faults were gone - i would try with a full set of new plugs - you might be surprised. Even the threads are knackered you may as well sort it once and for all

Actually received them a couple of days ago, change scheduled for today

New plugs installed, no major difference, possibly slightly improved but still getting the 1.5 cylinder running feeling at idle, and some sticky high idling now and then. The engine has only cut out occasionally as well which is good but would like to sort this out properly.

Also filled up with 98 octane.

If it is indeed sticky throttle actuators (marked in green, not sure about terminology), is it as simple to remove them (torx in red), visually inspect and possibly clean?

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[Justcruising]

In the absence of anyone with more experience chiming in ... yes that’s the IA’s & although I haven’t serviced them myself I recall reading at least one thread somewhere of someone successfully opening & servicing them ... have been unable to locate the post. More research here, Pelican Parts & google might uncover more for you.

That torx screw would be the starting point for removal of the IA. Depending on the extent to which you can open them up & witness their operation with ignition switch on (be careful here, if they now have no stop) i’d Be looking to spray them clean with something like electronic contact cleaner, followed by potentially a light spray of silicone lubricant IF it appears suitable & likely to help.

Unfortunately without a GS-911 or similar, you might be limited to the above & unable to do a calibration. Let us know how you go if you go ahead. Good luck!

[victorlaszlo]

Hi there,

Thanks for the reply, that's really useful. It seems as if the IAs from the R12S is only shared with later K12S's but I'm not 100% sure on this.

The torx screw holding them is a "safety torx" for which you need a hollow torx bit to remove it so before I do this, is there a reason this part, unlike say the injectors, has been protected by a special screw? Could there be some form of calibration meaning unscrewing it would ruin these settings?

If anyone has an idea then please let me know.

Cheers Victor

Jon, in the absence of anyone with more experience chiming in ... yes that’s the IA’s & although I haven’t serviced them myself I recall reading at least one thread somewhere of someone successfully opening & servicing them ... have been unable to locate the post. More research here, Pelican Parts & google might uncover more for you.

That torx screw would be the starting point for removal of the IA. Depending on the extent to which you can open them up & witness their operation with ignition switch on (be careful here, if they now have no stop) i’d Be looking to spray them clean with something like electronic contact cleaner, followed by potentially a light spray of silicone lubricant IF it appears suitable & likely to help.

Unfortunately without a GS-911 or similar, you might be limited to the above & unable to do a calibration. Let us know how you go if you go ahead. Good luck!

[victorlaszlo]

Ok, restart.

I need to get to the bottom of this.

Engine still feels lumpy at low rpm and sometimes like a fourstroking 2-stroke engine at 2000-4000 rpm.

Idle unstable between 1000-2000 rpm. Temperature indifferent and random, 50% of the time.

Running on "1.5 cylinder" syndrome at 25% of the time.

Sometimes cut out when rolling off throttle, more so if braking hard at the same time.

Done to date:

1. Checked for air leaks. None.
2. Running through some reddex. No difference after 1/3 tank.
3. New upper coils.
4. Replaced lower with second hand items. Tried at least three different replacements / side.
5. Adjusted valve clearances.
6. My mechanic has checked with the 911 for faults. There was a lower left coil reported as broken which I had replaced. Throttle bodies perfectly synced according to the 911.
7. New spark plugs.

My bike has remus cans and still cat fitted. Don't think it's been remapped.

Don't really notice any difference between 95 and 98 octane.

Questions :

a. What syndrome would a broken lambda sensor on one side have?

b. If a stepper motor was sticking, not returning to the proper positions, how would that impact the lower rpms?

Totally at loss here so please chip in with your ideas

[victorlaszlo]

Is it possible to directly insert videos from youtube with a player window?

Never the less:

Video of the bike cutting out

Video of the bike's poor idling

[victorlaszlo]

The mystery might be solved - stand by for an update after having tested more thoroughly!

[dave the german]

The mystery might be solved - stand by for an update after having tested more thoroughly!

Hurry up!! after having the throttle bodies balanced there was a noticeable improvement with mine but it still wasn't as good as I think it could be. I rang Hilltop and he suggested checking right side coil pack (as sitting on the bike) and check all connections and clean them. If no improvement book it in with him for a couple of hours diagnostics and then go from there - I can see it being quite expensive as I would get the re map done as well so hopefully our bike have the same problem and you've found the cure

[victorlaszlo]

The mystery might be solved - stand by for an update after having tested more thoroughly!

Hurry up!! after having the throttle bodies balanced there was a noticeable improvement with mine but it still wasn't as good as I think it could be. I rang Hilltop and he suggested checking right side coil pack (as sitting on the bike) and check all connections and clean them. If no improvement book it in with him for a couple of hours diagnostics and then go from there - I can see it being quite expensive as I would get the re map done as well so hopefully our bike have the same problem and you've found the cure

As I wrote above mine was perfectly synched and with right valve clearances.

To my understanding it's the lower left coil that most often goes but I suppose the top left one is also more prone to issues than the right as it stands in water when it rains.

I have driven for 45 minutes today around town and so far no 1.5 cylinder running issue. It's not 100% stable, fluctuates a bit between 1150 and 1200 rpm but that feels normal for a 2 cylinder bike, no concerns about that.

Engine braking is also back to normal and vibrations less severe than before

[Droptarotter]

Mine would feel like it ran on 1 1/2 cylinders whenever it wanted to......no real reason as to why or when?? Sometimes all I had to do was just shut it off and restart and all would be fine.

As far as I remember, coils and plugs were the main culprits described on the Pelican forums.

I'm not much help today as I would have to go look at my notes to see what I did to trouble shoot this.

Cheers